The world is rapidly changing, and leaders need to change with it. To facilitate that change, we need to identify and fix the gaps in leadership development before we can develop the leaders we need. In this episode, Ben Baker discusses leadership and how to fill the gaps with Michael Norton, the Executive Vice President at Xinnix. Michael talks about what he learned about developing leaders from some of the best in the world, including the renowned Zig Ziglar, and discusses what we need to do to develop leaders today. Tune in and learn more about leadership from Michael and Ben.
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Fixing The Gaps In Leadership Development With Michael Norton
[00:00:06] Welcome back, my wonderful audience. You are amazing. Every week, you guys read, and you respond. You contact me at Ben@YourBrandMarketing.com, you communicate with me on LinkedIn and I love it all. I love the fact that you guys engage and that you are interested in the show. You tell me what you like, what you don’t like and what you want to hear. That’s what this is all about. It’s about creating communication for you because that’s what we’re trying to do.
We help everybody get a little bit better and raise the tide for everybody. That’s what I wanted to get for my audience. I’ve got a real treat. I know I tell you this most weeks that I have a real treat, but Michael Norton and I have known each other for a while now. I said, “I got to get Michael on the show.” Michael sold his company, which is amazing, to XINNIX.com. It’s all about leadership and development and we’re going to talk about gaps in leadership development and what makes a great leader. Michael, welcome to the show.
[00:01:10] It’s a pleasure to be here. We have known each other for a while and I’m looking forward to this. I’m a big fan of yours. Hopefully, we can deliver a message for your community that they’re going to embrace, enjoy and give a little something different to think about.
[00:01:25] I’m as much of a fan as you. Let’s say it’s a mutual admiration society. It’s always great to see great people doing great things. Before we get started, I love this. Michael has on his suit, “Michael “Go-To” Norton.” When Tramazing joined XINNIX, you got to tell me the story about call signs because everybody within your company has a call sign. I want to know about that because it’s a great story for leadership and culture. I want to let you get into that before we get into anything else.
[00:02:04] It does set up transformational leadership thinking. One of the reasons we agreed to merge with and be acquired by XINNIX was the vision and the passion of the leadership, specifically the CEO. They’ve got a track record of proven success in developing people. One of the founders, the husband of the CEO, Casey, served in the Air Force. When they started building programming, they gave it all a flight theme. They have officer school, ground school, ignite, edge and soar, all of these names.
They decided they wanted to give everybody call signs, so everybody in the company who has ever worked here always had a call sign. It’s got to be short, cool and you got to love it. When you’re given a call sign in the military, it’s the other way around. They have a lot of fun with you. The fun thing has been, which you’ve picked up on because you and I knew each other before this, now we have these call signs.
Everybody who I’ve talked to is like, “How do I get a call sign?” When we train corporations, whether we’re training 5, 10 or 100 people, they ask for a call sign as they’re coming through the training. Everybody has a chance to participate. It’s fun and energizing when you are talking about performance development, whether sales, management, leadership, customer care or operations.
[00:03:39] That’s cool because, around Veterans Day, I interviewed Ron Higgs, and we did an interview on Leadership Lessons From A Naval Aviator. I can’t remember if we talked online, but we certainly have talked offline about call signs. It’s a way that bonds people and leadership. It brings a team together and gets people to understand a little bit more about your personality, who you are, what you do and why you do it. I love the fact that your call sign is “Go-To” because you are certainly the go-to guy. You are the guy that gets things done, sits there and says, “Here’s my helmet, coach. Put me in.” I love that about you.
[00:04:25] I’ve had the blessing, total benefit and privilege of working with Zig Ziglar as a business partner, then as a consultant. I then became part of the company and I was with him as the president of his company. I was running Zig’s company up until he retired. During that time, I met Tommy Hopkins. I got to spend time and work with Denis Waitley, all of these great leaders and icons. We worked with the Covey and the Maxwell organization. It was such an unbelievable exposure to personal and professional development and what they were doing that led people along the way.There are three things that leaders today really need to be good: transparency, vulnerability, and empathy. Click To Tweet
Denis Waitley is one of the most amazing men I’ve ever met in my life. He is a true mentor and coach to me. Back when I met him in the very early 2000s, he said, “You’re the most proactive guy I’ve ever met in my life.” He is the one that started the go-to. He was like, “When I got to get something done, you’re my go-to guy. I’ve never met anybody who’s as proactive as you.” I think as leaders, that’s one of the things that I’ve carried with me my entire life. Once you’re labeled like that, you can’t let somebody like Denis Waitley or Zig Ziglar down. You have to be the guy.
[00:05:44] I think we grow into the person that we’re meant to be based on how people treat us. If people want to give you the ball, you’re the person asking for the ball. If you’re the one asking for the ball, people are going to give you the ball. When we’re training the future leaders, we need to get them to assume that they’re going to take the ball and that they are going to be the ones that are going to be tasked with pushing the ball down the field. To be able to sit there and say, “This is where we’re going. This is how we’re going to get here and here’s how we’re going to get there as a team.”
I want to talk to you about leadership. Leadership is what this is all about. Many people I talk to say, especially as we move through COVID and hopefully, beyond COVID, that the needs of leaders have changed, but the companies within them have not. How do we figure out the gaps of leadership now, and what do we do about it?
[00:07:00] That’s an excellent subject for us to talk about here. Not that it has to be football, but think of any competition or any type of game. We can all arguably say that the past few months have been a time of the most dramatic change that we’ve seen. When you look at healthcare, society as a whole, the way we have to travel and the way we can’t travel, where we can dine and where we can’t dine, how we work or those hybrid work environments. It has changed significantly. We were all playing the game.
What has to happen in leadership now to be super effective is what we are calling at halftime. How are we adapting and pivoting? What happened years ago, let’s consider that the first and second quarter. Now, we’re in the locker room and we’re saying, “We’re coming out ready to play the second half of this game,” which could be the next two years. Who knows when we’re going to get back to some normal play? It’s what are we drawing on the whiteboard? What does that look like? Where are our gaps?
Our gaps in leadership mean that the first thing we have to do is be aware of what Marshall Goldman says, “What got you here won’t get you there.” Where are we deficient? We can’t be doing just leadertainment where you get a guest speaker to come in and talk about leadership every once in a while. They get everybody to say, “That was awesome,” and then they go away and next month, they bring in another subject matter expert, and they do that again.
They think, “We’re developing our leaders by putting them through these ad hoc motivational series,” or we say, “Here’s the book of the month. Read this one. Next month, we’ll read the next one.” Those are all good, but they have to be supported by a practical and tactical way to take the primary lessons and make them actionable within your organization.
[00:08:55] Before we tackle that, I want to tackle the halftime analogy. The problem is we went into the locker room minutes ago and we’ve come out, and the game has changed. The rules have changed. They move the goalposts. They are thinner or thicker. They’re further away and the ball’s smaller or larger. A lot of it has to do with the fact of how we went to work every day, the fact that the dynamic of people was in the office, in cubicles and that there was a lot of the face-to-face and now, we’re sitting there with a situation.
Are we a remote workforce, an office workforce or a hybrid workforce? What are the rules? How are things changed? All of that leads to confusion, not only for leaders but also for the people who are being led. Before we build a new playbook, we need to understand the new rules of the game. How are you helping leaders, first of all, understand how the game has changed before we helped them build a playbook to be able to play effectively in the new reality?
[00:10:15] The smartest thing we can do for an organization is to not take their people and put them into a virtual classroom or even if they’re willing, to bring people together and put them in a live classroom. The best use of time now is taking the time upfront to understand what’s going on inside that organization. Not every organization is the same, even in the same industries. I have worked with companies within telecom or healthcare. It is the exact same type of industry serving the same types of end-users and their company culture is different with the way they go about tackling things.
First, you have to understand where the gaps are. What are you missing? How are you going to go about your business and how are you going to play the second half? Let’s get clear on that. The first order of business has to be transparency. It is how you are going to communicate where we are now and where we understand that we’re broken and that it’s okay to be broken because we all were broken. Every company on the planet was broken months ago. We acknowledge that we’re broken, we’re going to be transparent about it and here’s our game plan to fix it. Here are the things we’re going to go to differently in the second half. You have to understand where the gaps and the strengths are.
I know we all do 360s and SWOT analysis, but this is taking it super deep. What is your strategic and tactical plan based on where you are right now as an organization? Who are the players on your team? What does a day in the life look like for every position player on your team and what does all that data look like? When was the last time you ran any type of assessment on your people, like competencies and behavior, communication and personality or skills gap? That’s empirical data. We take the time to interview people in a 360. Now, you’re getting anecdotal information.
When you can marry the anecdotal feedback with the empirical data and read the tea leaves about what’s going on inside that particular company and their culture and leadership team, now you can prescribe, “Here’s what we would recommend that you do going forward. Here’s the cadence of content. Here’s the learning journey. Here’s the learning roadmap for everybody on your team.”
[00:12:27] It’s drilling down to the individual level as well because it’s not just the team in Iowa versus the team in California versus the team in New York City. It’s the individual people within those things because let’s face it, there are some people now that are never coming back to the office.
[00:12:46] This is why I love you. We didn’t have a chance to practice this and we didn’t need to talk about this, but what you hit on is one of the things I say all the time. It has to go down to the individual level because we live in an individual world. Technology has changed everything. We walk around with our cellphones with pictures of our family right on the screen. We have Facebook pages.
We live in a world of personalization that everything is personalized towards us. Why are we going to treat our training and development and our people any differently? You have to go down to the individual level. You could build each person up so they can have the greatest impact that influences the entire organization.
[00:13:29] We’re in a human-to-human world. I don’t care how much technology we have. I don’t care about AI or machine learning. All of that enhances relationships and enables people to work better together, but it shouldn’t be a crutch, a deterrent or an excuse. Your technology should feed the people. It should help people be better people and allow teams, individuals and leaders to be better at what they do and not be a crutch that people use. That’s the trouble.
Getting back to something you said about months ago, every leader realized how fallible they were. Up to that point, people felt as leaders, “I have to be perfect. I have to know it all. I can’t show weakness.” Hopefully, all of that has changed for the better and people realize their own fallibilities because their team members did. The people who report to them realize what they are good and bad at and their strengths and weaknesses.
I think that the more we can all realize, “I don’t know everything. I can never know everything. I can never be good at everything. My job is to make my team as good as it can be so they can be the strength where I’m weak and vice versa,” I think we’re going to live in a better world and that comes back to that human to human. I think that that was an important thing that I didn’t want to gloss over that you said. First of all, it’s important for leaders to understand this, embrace this, and move forward with that.We live in an individual world. Technology has changed everything. Click To Tweet
[00:15:16] Can I build on that?
[00:15:21] There are three things that leaders need to be good about. Those are transparency, vulnerability and empathy. A lot of people talk about the empathy part. There’s a lot of conversations. I go to conferences, sit in the room and it seems like that’s the word that everybody wants to latch onto, but empathy works when you back that up with vulnerability and transparency. You can’t possibly know it all. You can’t be the person anymore as a leader who has the big S or a superhero cape and do everything.
Satya Nadella, the CEO of Microsoft, I love reading some of the things that he says and talks about. He said something that got my attention in a recent article. He said, “We got to stop being a know-it-all. We have to be a learn-it-all.” We, as leaders, can demonstrate to our people that we’re still learning and there’s still so much room ahead of us to get better. No matter how far we’ve come in this journey, it never ends. Continuous improvement and learning never end.
Here is another one of my favorite quotes. Arguably, you and I talked about. We’ve never seen this dramatic change. Eric Hoffer said this years ago, “In times of dramatic change, it’s the learners that will inherit the future, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to live in a world that no longer exists.”
[00:17:01] How wonderful is that?
[00:17:03] How prophetic is that for where we are right now? We have to be constantly on the grow.
[00:17:14] I forgot where it came from, but it was letters to first-year engineering students. The letter started off like, “Congratulations for making it this far. You’re now at the starting line,” because you’re dealing with kids that are coming into engineering school with 94% 95% or 98%. You have to be a fairly smart kid to make it into engineering. It’s not an easy thing. They probably deny 7 out of 8 kids into engineering programs across North America.
What you’re realizing is, as smart as you were in high school, as talented as you were or as above as you were with everybody else, now you’re on a level playing field with everybody around you and it’s time to open yourself up to new levels of learning. I think we all have to take that philosophy and idea that there’s always something new to learn. There’s always a new way to look at things and a different way to embrace the world. I see that as a gap in leadership development now is that we’re not teaching that.
[00:18:26] One hundred percent because it goes back to, “I know it all.” Here’s exactly what happens all too often unless you talk to any other company that does performance development for leadership. You’ll get an executive leader that will say, “We do need leadership, but can you start with my managers or with those other ones?” I’m too busy to attend that leadership program.” That’s the absolute worst thing that they could do. They’re modeling for failure.
We all know who Zig Ziglar is. It is 250 million lives and counting that he has positively impacted. Even though he passed away in 2012, his legacy lives on. His son, Tom, is still driving his legacy, but then think of that number. It is 250 million lives that he has positively touched. Here’s what I want to share with your audience. From the behavior you talked about, I got to personally travel with Zig, as did other people in the company. When you go somewhere with Zig Ziglar, he is sitting on the airplane, he has got a pad of paper, a book, and reading and taking notes.
When you go someplace where there’s another speaker, he’s sitting in the front row taking notes. He said, “Michael, there are people who know so much more than I know. They’re leading me.” This is arguably the greatest motivational speaker ever of all time and he is taking notes. It doesn’t matter. It could have been at a conference where the vice president of sales for North America got up and had a 45-minute spot on stage at a big conference. Zig is taking notes to listen and to see if there’s something he could learn. That was the kind of behavior that a true leader demonstrates for their team. That’s what they modeled for their team.
[00:20:18] The keyword is model. You can’t ever be above it. You can’t be the person that says, “You need to train my people.” You were right. It is the kiss of death when all of a sudden you hear a leader say, “The training is for other people,” because let’s face it. Most leaders, especially small to midsize companies, become a leader by accident.
All the way up to CEOs where you started in with a concept, you had an idea, you decided that you were going to get bigger, you got more successful, you wanted to move forward and because of that, you had to hire people. You kept hiring people and you kept doing things, but during the time, you never learned how to train those people and how to make those people better because you were trying to give away things that you didn’t want to do.
You never took the time to be a leader and learn how to be a leader and therefore, we have lots of organizations out there where you’re dealing with people that are leading because they were good-doers. They were good salesmen, so they became sales managers. They were good marketing people, so they became good marketing leaders, etc., but they haven’t been taught how to train the people below them on how to be successful.
I think that that’s one of the problems with a lot of leaders and a lot of development. They’re not sitting there going, “My job as a leader is not to look important in the office. It’s not the big chair, the bump in salary or the more expensive car that they give me. It’s how do I take care of the people that I’m responsible for,” and I think that’s the one thing that we need to teach leaders moving forward.
[00:22:21] A part of that is because we all see that happen over and over again. An individual contributor has wild success and they’re moved into management or a leadership role. Even if we think, “We have a great leadership development program. We’re going to invest a lot of money in their development and teach them how to do that.” Let’s say they even followed the best practice. What they miss is, does that person want to be a leader? I can tell you that sitting with sales organizations, specifically and talking with maybe a sales manager who was put in a position in a matter of 16, 18, or 24 months in the role and we were hired to try to fix what’s going on, we sit down and we do our interviews and they’re unbelievably stressed out.
I ask them, “What gives you the most joy? What energizes you?” All they can talk about is being in front of customers. The only thing they enjoyed about the role was flying in, parachuting in, jumping in on a Zoom, and closing business. When it comes to the actual coaching, mentoring, funnel management, forecasting, pipeline, it sucks the life from them and when it starts sucking the life from them, it takes their energy away. Now, they are super stressed, nothing is good at home and at work because this isn’t what they wanted, but we thrust it upon them and made it sound great.
One of the things that we can do is a gap. I’m a huge believer in assessments. Why not run an assessment on somebody to figure out how they’re wired? Have a candid conversation saying, “Here are some opportunities inside of the organization. We’re growing and changing. You’ve been incredibly successful. We’re wondering, is leading other people something that’s important to you?” At an honest level, if they’re like, “I love myself. I’m at my territory. I’ve got a great book of business. No, I don’t want that.”
I can point to my own life many years ago. I went through a sales training program as a brand-new sales hire with another gentleman. I moved into a fast-track management program. This was something I desired to do my whole life. I wanted this path. He stayed with the exact same company for the longest time being a sales rep. He made more money than I ever made and had more flexible hours than I ever had. He enjoyed the heck out of everything while I killed myself traveling around the world, putting out fires and developing people. I was energized. It’s what I wanted to do, but he stayed in his role and it’s what he wanted to do.We have to stop being a know it all. We have to be a learn it all. Click To Tweet
[00:24:59] The trick is when you are asking, “Do you want to be a leader,” explaining what a leader truly is or what our vision is of a leader. This is the good, the bad, and the ugly of leadership. There’s going to be more reporting and more responsibilities. We’re going to get you to do this, this and this. Do you have the skills to do this? You don’t. Do you still want to do this? Fine, but we need to up-level your gaps. We need to get you the training to move you from being that successful salesperson to that successful sales manager and that doesn’t come naturally.
You need to give people the ability to read spreadsheets, do the reports, or manage relationships amongst different departments. There are all sorts of politics within an organization that most people, who are new leaders, haven’t got a clue what they’re doing when they move in. Most of them feel frustrated and insecure. They flounder and they fail because they don’t understand the expectations.
[00:26:14] Clearly defined expectation is missed all the time. What happens when that happens? We bring somebody up into a management role or we give them a leadership role because we want to move on and do something else. We set those expectations. As basic as this sounds, we’ve heard it said a million times before, but it never gets done. We don’t inspect what we expect. We tell them to do it like, “Here are the expectations,” but we never go back and look at them. They think they did a great job, so they keep doing the behavior. Nobody ever pointed it out to them, but that’s not right.
It was not until six months later and I was like, “What are you doing in your CRM tool? What dashboards are you looking at? Didn’t I tell you to do that?” They’re like, “I thought you did, but here’s what I was doing.” If we don’t go back and inspect what we expect, people give that lip service all the time. If you’re reading this episode now and you’re a leader, and you start having those inspections of what you expect calls with the people who are reporting to you, you’ll change the entire dynamic of your organization. You’ll start to develop doers or people who could replicate the success that you’re looking for.
[00:27:35] We all assume that people hear and internalize what we said because we’re speaking in our language or in our verbiage when we say something. We’re doing things the way that we expect things, “I would learn it this way, so everybody else does.” It’s not to be condescending, to micromanage or to be anything of those things, but to sit there and say, “Can you show me what you’re doing?”
When I first learned how to do this, I didn’t get it the first time either. “Maybe I was stupid the way I was teaching it to you. Show me what you’re doing. Let me make sure that I taught it to you correctly.” If you sit there and almost give yourself a mea culpa, you’re giving that person permission to fail, but to sit there and go, “You’re not stupid. I was stupid because I didn’t teach it to you correctly.” It gives you the ability to reteach it in a way that is convenient for them and makes sense for them. I think that too many people out there and whether it’s leadership or communication on any level, whether it’s internal or external communication, we don’t take the time to check in to make sure that what we said was understood.
[00:29:05] That’s a huge gap, especially when we talk about things that people don’t understand or we say things that we think people understand. Think about some of the other more common things that leadership talks about or you get put into a leadership program. They say, “What’s your mission statement? You don’t have a mission statement, so let’s help you build one. What’s your vision statement that backs and supports it?”
Now, all of a sudden, you’ve heard these terms for the last few decades. Mission, vision and values. Are my values the same as the company’s values? Is my vision where I’m taking my team in alignment with the goals and objectives and vision of where the company is going as an organization? They’ve told me their vision, but do I understand it that same way or am I looking at it through the lens of my vision for my team?
[00:29:59] Take the word integrity. Everybody has got integrity in their mission statement. It’s one of the core values that people cling to. What does integrity really mean within your organization? How do you define integrity? How does your accounting, compliance, legal, ops, marketing, sales, or customer experience departments define integrity? Then the individual people within them, are you all define the integrity of the same way or do you say, “We don’t lie to our clients. We stand behind the statements that we make no matter what.” That’s a better way of putting it than saying, “We have integrity.”
[00:30:54] When I see that and I see integrity painted on their walls, on their website or in their mission, vision or value statements, but shouldn’t that be a given?
[00:31:11] Not too long ago, I did an interview for somebody. They asked me to take a look at a salesperson and I wound up making a little note in my not column in the margin of my notebook because they said it so often. They were like, “To be honest with you,” and I was like, “Wow.” After they said it the third time, I said, “I’m going to write this down and make a little ding mark.” They said it thirteen times in an hour-long conversation. Why do they have to keep telling me to be honest with me? Shouldn’t I just expect that they’re being honest with me?
[00:31:39] Does everybody assume that they’re not honest?
[00:31:43] Another gap, by the way, since we’re talking about mission, vision, values, miscommunicating and not being understood, I think we got it all wrong. Even the flow of the way where we say mission, vision and values, turn it upside down. It should be driven by your values. Talk about your values, your vision, and how your values and vision will support your end mission. It should be value, vision, and mission instead of mission, vision and values.
[00:32:16] We’re getting along on the conversation, but let’s take it one step further. You’ve put these wonderful words on a page, on a wall, on a plaque somewhere, on a t-shirt, or on a coffee mug, but do you really live it as an organization? You need to be honest with yourself. If customer experience, loyalty and integrity are truly part of who you are as an organization, are they just words on a page, or does every single person in the organization not only understand what you mean by that but lives it on a daily basis both inside the organization and outside the organization?
[00:33:02] You and I have talked about this several times. I’m a big believer in some of the most classic books and things that are out there. I still go back and re-read them, and when I think about things like some of the old books like Whale Done! and Gung Ho! and Who Moved My Cheese, look at where we are. Somebody moved our cheese these last couple of months and that is what was written long ago. When we think about those classic things like Gung Ho! and having your team rally around the mission and what you do as a company, it doesn’t matter what your role is in the organization.
I don’t care if you are the best pushover broom to make that showroom sparkling or you are the CEO of the organization and everywhere in between. If everybody isn’t saying, “What I do matters,” then that’s a gap in leadership development. How do we get the connection through the entire organization that everybody wants to be here? When we serve our customers, we’re not just serving our customers. We’re serving our customer’s customer and our customer’s customer’s customer. It goes all the way down the line and the impact that we can have in people’s lives.
[00:34:13] I want to ask you two questions, then I’m going to let you out the door. The first question is, what’s the one thing that you think that every single leader now needs to be concentrating on?
[00:34:31] I have nothing prepared for that exact question, but I’m going to tell you what it is. Is it okay if I just shoot off the cuff?
[00:34:36] Absolutely.We see integrity painted on everybody's walls or on their website and in their mission, vision, or value statements, but shouldn't it be a given? Click To Tweet
[00:34:37] Here’s what’s been on my heart. It’s an abundance mentality. Hear me out on why I’m saying that for leaders and what’s missing because I talk to leaders and organizations all day long. Everything that we talked about around the change, halftime, what has happened before, how will we play the game in the future? What you have going on now in our ranks is something called scarcity. There’s a scarcity mentality about everything from how it’s going to impact their work, their supply chains, the cost of raw materials, and everything happening at work.
There are enough bodies to do the work, so what is that creating? That’s creating stress and the stress is coming because people have fear, worry and doubt going on in their heads. It’s a scarcity mentality. They have to get it right. They have to think about why and be able to support it within their organization or within the framework of what they’re doing, and it’s got to be the truth because we still have an abundance mentality here. There’s an abundance of opportunity.
Never before have we had so much opportunity because people have left and there are new gaps to be filled. There are opportunities within our organization and opportunity to serve the customers. This is an abundant opportunity. We have to get rid of this scarcity mentality of fear, worry and doubt. How do we breathe into our people the spirit of abundance?
[00:36:07] It’s such an important point. It has been a pleasure talking to you. For people who want to find Michael Norton, find him on LinkedIn or at XINNIX.com. He is an amazing person. Here’s the last question. When you leave a meeting and you get in your car and drive away, what’s the one thing you want people to think about you when you’re not in the room?
[00:36:44] I wasn’t the one who came up with this, but I learned it. It’s how did I make them feel? Did I make them feel like they were the most important person that I had given them my undivided attention to? Everything they shared with me, whether I was in selling mode or receiving mode, was my energy on that person where they say, “That wasn’t another vendor or just another meeting. Michael really listened to what I had to say.” I want them to remember that I care.
Teddy Roosevelt said it first, “People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care,” but then Zig Ziglar added this to it. He said, “People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care about them.” That was part of who we became at Ziglar Inc. It was how much we cared about the other person. It doesn’t matter who I’m talking to. I’ve got story after story if we ever do this again about how this plays out, but when I leave and I get in my car and back on an airplane, I want them to say, “That guy was all in on me.”
[00:37:52] It has been a pleasure. Thank you for an amazing conversation. It has been a lot of fun and I can’t wait to do this again.
[00:38:00] Thanks. Me too. You’re awesome.
- Michael Norton
- Ron Higgs – previous episode
- Whale Done!
- Gung Ho!
- Who Moved My Cheese
- LinkedIn – Michael Norton
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